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Sunday, March 23, 2008

What we like to do for fun

This dialogue follows that posted Saturday, March 22

From Joe to Moristotle

You smiled...I thought at best you would roll your eyes.

I think we both think that each other's words are empty. Not really sure about your religious tracts comment. I could accuse you of reading atheist tracts. Fact is we both look at the same facts and interpret them differently.

As for Leviticus and Numbers, The Mosaic (Moses, Leviticus and stuff) Covenant was temporary. The New Covenant is a relationship with God, through Christ.

You said responsible parents can know how to raise their children...my question is how? What is your guide? Do you use past experience? Society norms?

I have started my quest reading your blog. Lot to read through. I do thank you for offering opportunities to strengthen my beliefs and study more about what I believe. I will try not to make you repeat yourself.


What else you like to do for fun? I know you like to read and watch movies. You have any other hobbies? Do you like sports...you are in a good area to like college sports. Are you a Tar Heels fan?

From Moristotle to Joe

First, thanks for asking what else I like to do for fun. I had been just about to ask you whether you planned to watch the basketball game between Arkansas and North Carolina this evening. While I do hope that Carolina wins, I wouldn't call myself a fan. I don't like to watch any sports events. I hope Carolina wins only because I work with a lot of people to whom it's important, and they would be in a better mood tomorrow if Carolina won. Plus, Carolina is "supposed" to be the best this year, and a lot of people would be really dejected if they didn't play in the championship game.

But bottom line is that I think collegiate athletics have gone way too far when it comes to money and fanaticism. Same for professional sports. All are emblems of a trivial popular culture. Actually, my attitude is not new. I felt roughly the same way when I was a high school student. At a basketball game I attended as a senior (I guess), I was struck by how mindless seemed the wild roaring of each side for its own team. I think I was then under the sway of some classical Greek ideal of competition not as defeating an opponent but as attempting to be the "best you can be," where you can as sincerely congratulate members of the "opposing" team as you can the members of "your own" team. And you can feel as sorry for any participant's failure as you can for that of another.

I don't know whether the way I do gardening qualifies as a hobby, but I generally enjoy messing about the yard, doing the things that are necessary to keep it looking good and so on. Also, although it isn't necessary, I very much enjoy taking out bird feed every morning and taking in the feeders at night that a raccoon or possum might otherwise attack. Of course, I enjoy watching birds visit the feeders. I even enjoy watching squirrels trying to get at the food. There was one the other day draped around the long thistle feeder, eating as much of the minute grains as it could. I don't begrudge these little creatures their food, however they can get it.

My son and I sometimes play Boggle, and I used to play Scrabble and chess quite a bit, but it's been a long time. Sometimes I'll try to sneak a few pieces in on my wife's jigsaw puzzle.

I actually enjoy just doing the daily chores, making the bed, preparing breakfast, making the dinner salads, keeping the place looking tidy. I don't believe in life after death. I see that the present life, whatever its condition, is precious and ultimate. That includes the present life of others, human or otherwise. Thus, I try to do good. My sense of authentic self demands it. I suppose that my attitude is that such life is holy.


Now back to the beginning. Did you really think that I would "roll my eyes"? Please tell me a little more about what you were thinking when you wrote the original sentence about "uncaused First Cause"; that is, why did you (apparently) think even at the time that I would not be impressed by it?

I don't agree that we both think that each other's words are empty (in general). I was commenting only on one particular phrase you used. Please don't overgeneralize. That's rather like hurling rocks back at me. Try to be more responsible.

Joe, it's almost impossible for me to believe that you're serious when you ask how can responsible parents know how to raise their children. Are you that unread? If you don't know the answer, then I certainly don't have the time to explain it to you.

My "religious tract" comment came from my own experience with such literature, in which highfallutin, philosophical-sounding phrases are bandied about in a display of presumed wisdom, and it's hard to tell whether the author really believes it or is just trying to console the readers of such publications. I can't be sure from your response, but you seem to be implying (or trying to give the impression) that you have never read such things.

The recent books of Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Richard Dawkins, as well as Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason and Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian—all of which I have read and am fairly certain you have not—are not "tracts." Your tossing "tract" back to me (as though it were a ball and you hoped I'd fumble it and it would bounce up and fall through the hoop to score you a point) does not flatter you. (Do you own a dictionary? The American Heritage Dictionary defines "tract" this way: "A distributed paper or pamphlet containing a declaration or appeal, especially one put out by a religious or political group.") If you can't rise above that sort of playground brawling style, then I really don't wish to participate, and you should go find someone else to work off your testosterone with.

Reading opposing points of view (such as my blog) for the purpose of strengthening your own beliefs....Please, if you would, do let us know how it goes. If you want to note progress in comments on particular posts, go ahead, as I'll be automatically notified that you've done so and will see your comment.

From Joe to Moristotle

Wow, I have asked you twice now about how you raised your kids. How did you teach them right and wrong and you still have not answered. You could have easily said: Joe, I read this book or that book, or I raised them based off my experience of how I was raised. No, I am not asking for your advice on how to raise my kid...just curious on how an atheist knows right from wrong, and how that translates to raising their kids.

Uncaused First Caused relates to the explanation that the universe just didn't happen, that an Intelligent Creator started it. I assumed tone from your email...because it seems like you are getting frustrated, or at best you feel I am wasting your time. I know tone is really impossible to deduce from email, so please forgive me for making an assumption on your tone. I am not really in the business of impressing you. I am just trying to figure out more about what you believe. It seems our emails always turn into this...me saying something, you telling me I am wrong and I don't read enough, me stating something I did read, you telling me how that it's ridiculous, etc.

I am not trying to win points with you or beat you at a game. I do not own a dictionary...I just go to dictionary.com.

From Moristotle to Joe

Joe, the way I'm feeling at the moment is that I don't see any future in our continuing to try to discuss this. We seem to rub each other the wrong way. Or at least you sure rub me the wrong way; I can't tolerate your taunting, take-no-prisoners style of debate. (That's what I had in mind by referring to your testosterone. You strike me as a particularly "alpha" male, and I've never liked the type.)

But, since you are insisting so, I'll say that we raised our kids many years ago and I don't remember very well what we did. I don't believe we read them Bible stories. We probably read some Dr. Spock. We had moral sensibility (humans have it as an evolved species; evolutionary biologists are studying it now) and we tried to reinforce it in our children. We were also educated people. Our daughter (as she revealed to me a month or two ago in a comment on one of my posts) decided "as a kid" (probably fifth or sixth grade) that there was no god, but I know few people more considerate and good than she is. My son seems to be agnostic; he likes to "believe in the possibility of God" and appreciates some wonderful music that its composers' attributed to their sense of "God." He, too, is a fine, upstanding, sensitive, considerate person. So, Joe, try to lose your parochial, self-serving opinion that atheists have to be bad people.

22 comments:

  1. Oh no!!

    Another ally bites the dust!

    I go to ringside and call them down from the stands. I send secret messages so they come and respond on your own blog. Nothing works!

    Buying the referee: (as you suggested) that may be my only recourse.

    Actually, I trust you know I am just kidding. I have nothing to do with Joe's responding. But I did look over your recent exchanges last night and was looking forward to seeing how it turned out. Looks like I won't have much of a show to watch! Too bad.

    Incidentally, while Joe might be seen to be "in my camp" in many particulars, I don't agree with all he's said. I don't really question that an atheist can raise his kids to be decent. (and possibly he doesn't either.....you might view it that he is just searching for clarification)I think love for one's children and the desire to protect and look out for them is instinctive enough that one's religious outlook is not the deciding factor.

    To be sure, it's an everchanging world. What trends are the rage at one time are out the window a few years later. It's nice to have some sort of reliable & steady moral guide to see us through turbulent times. I (and I think Joe) have found Bible principles to be such a guide. But I know you haven't.

    And, truth be told, there is also the "preacher's child" syndrome: that is the preachers' kid who turns out the rottenest of them all. (and NO, I am not making any reference to my own family...don't throw any Freudian jumble at me....but I've not observed atheists to be especially incompetent as parents....at least no more so than the mean.

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  2. Hi Dad, I am home today, not feeling well and I thought I'd catch up on your blog.

    this part of Joe's comments made me laugh out loud: "Wow, I have asked you twice now about how you raised your kids. How did you teach them right and wrong and you still have not answered. You could have easily said: Joe, I read this book or that book, or I raised them based off my experience of how I was raised. No, I am not asking for your advice on how to raise my kid...just curious on how an atheist knows right from wrong, and how that translates to raising their kids."

    Is this guy serious??? How does an aetheist know right from wrong??? are you KIDDING me? He really thinks you have to be religious, oh wait, CHRISTIAN, to know right from wrong??? WOW. Let's read a little of the history of the world and see all the violence committed "in God's name." I may be deluding myself but I remember my brother and I being quite well behaved, and we didn't need bible stories or ten commandments to know right from wrong. there are plenty of other fables that explain the same truths without expecting faith in a particular myth.

    I don't need to believe in a hereafter to be motivated to be "good." Living a good life is reward in itself.

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  3. joe here: I don't understand why I am getting so blasted for simply asking a question. I never said morris could not raise decent kids. I never said his kids turned out bad. I asked how did he raise his kids.

    my question is how does an atheist know right from wrong? Its a simple question I thought. I am not condemning behavior or anything, I am just asking. As a Christian I try to do what I think is right...if I have a question on an issue I go to the Bible which I feel is God's word. Being an atheist who does not believe that the Bible is God's word I was simply asking how you know right from wrong and can your opinion change? If it changes, what causes it to change and how do you then know that is right?

    Sorry if I came off as some high and might Christian person. I am by no means perfect, never claimed to be, I simply asked a question.

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  4. HA!

    Good answer from your daughter, Moristotle. She done you proud.

    But I see Joe's point, too. And as I suspected, he's not accusing so much as looking for information, though perhaps phrasing his request in a way that rankles you.

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  5. Joe, to put it succinctly, you might read some books besides the Bible.

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  6. Right on Dad.

    The Bible is hardly the only place to find parables Joe. Right from wrong is really pretty simple. If it hurts someone else, that is a pretty strong sign that it is wrong. I don't need to look that up in the bible.

    My parents read to us a lot and my brother and I both grew up to be readers. I remember reading "Highlights" magazine and they had (and still have) a comic sort of thing of Goofus and Gallant where the title characters display poor and good behaviour, respectively. Lessons on right and wrong are all around us every day if we have our eyes and ears open.

    I honestly cannot believe you are sincerely asking how an aethiest would know right from wrong. I agree with my dad, go to the library. Even something like Nancy Drew (which I read avidly as a child) demonstrates right from wrong.

    JDN

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  7. Joe my dad just clued me in as to who you are. I have a different perspective on your questions now then when I thought you were some random stranger, sorry.

    I really do think "knowing right from wrong" comes down to being well read and to paying attention to what is happening around you. Even reading a newspaper article, or watching "cops" on TV. Would you have done something that the person in the article or show did? Everything you read, see, hear, seeing the actions and the consequences, is another piece of information in the database.

    If I could somehow recreate my childhood (actually my life to this moment), every experience I had, every book my parents read to me or I read myself, you would understand how I know right from wrong. Actually you ask does my opinion on what is right and wrong change and how do I know what is right. I think you will find the idea of right and wrong change even within the pages of the bible. I go by what I have learned over the years, what I know in my heart. Am I perfect, do I always make the right choice, no. that is life, though.

    I hope that helps. :-) -JDN

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  8. Agreed the Bible is not the only place to find parables. I disagree with you saying that if it hurts someone else it’s a pretty strong sign its wrong. If that were the case Doctors and Dentists would be some of the worse people in the world. However with healthcare prices these days you may be on to something there.

    Yes lessons of right and wrong are around us everyday. But basing right and wrong on human action can be dangerous...would you agree? Something like, if your family were starving would you steal a loaf of bread and would that be right or wrong. I would do whatever it takes to feed my family but my action does not determine if the act is right or wrong. By stealing the loaf of bread I am hurting the bread salesman, but helping my family.

    I think we all can agree that I am ignorant on this topic so I am looking for a list of books or resources on how atheists know right from wrong. You gave me a couple sources in your comment JDN. I vaguely remember reading Highlights, but do not specifically remember Goofus or Gallant...

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  9. Hey Joe, I don't think there is an aethesist's guide to child rearing, if that is what you are after.

    doctor's and dentists causing pain is not really the kind of hurt I am talking about, maybe it would be better for me to say, if your actions cause INTENDED negative consequences for someone else, they are probably wrong. I would say stealing bread to feed your family is wrong and the fact that it helps your family does not justify it in my mind. Doing wrong to others to do right by yourself is still wrong. Why do I think that (how do I know that)? That is a product of all the experiences in my life for the past 38 years.

    So you are saying that you ultimately determine whether something is right or wrong by looking it up in the bible? I am sure you know that the bible has been used over the years to justify many heinous acts, not the least of which was slavery?

    Again I'd have to go back to my dad's suggestion, read more.

    -JDN

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  10. We're getting quite a symposium going here, everyone!

    Joe, I don't think your counter to my daughter, "If that were the case, doctors and dentists would be some of the worst people in the world," shows quite enough of the nuance that productive thinking generally requires. Besides, if that's really a logical problem for you, what about the punishments God puts people through in the Bible in order to straighten them out? Wouldn't God, as you say, "be one of the worst people in the world?"

    I can't make hide nor hair of the example you give of "basing right and wrong on human action." Nothing in it seems to be "being based" on anything. It almost makes me think that your real problem is that without an authoritative book (in your case the Bible) to tell you "This is right; that is wrong," you'd simply be at a loss. You seem to think that people who aren't religious must have some other authority, but you can't imagine what it might be. And you don't seem to be able to imagine how they could possibly figure out how to be good without an authority.

    It appears that your assumptions about God have the deeper assumption that there must be a parent-child arrangement, with God the parent, of course, and humans the children. (Tom Sheepandgoats shares that view.) My daughter's assumption is more like, there's no god, and we need to grow up and be adults.

    As a start to understanding how religion is unnecessary for morality, you could hardly do better than read Chapters 6 & 7 of Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion, which came out in paperback earlier this year. I've just begun to read the entire book a third time.

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  11. I'd explain the "God is the worst person in the world" as God knows what is best. Who am I to think I have everything figured out? If God needs to discipline me to show me His will and plan then so be it. I know that He loves me and He will take care of me regardless.

    "You seem to think that people who aren't religious must have some other authority, but you can't imagine what it might be"...exactly! That was my issue..I was wondering where the authority comes from. Fortunately, you and your family have had good life experiences to help you along the way (as JDN referenced in her last comment).

    My problem is, if you solely base your definition of right and wrong off your experiences, it seems like someone that had nothing but bad experiences would be playing against a stacked deck.

    As JDN referenced, her experiences have led her to believe what she thinks is right. This shows she was raised in a good home, with good examples. I'm just wondering about the people that were not raised in a good home, or those that have not read Nancy Drew, or Dawkins.

    As JDN asked, what about the slavery and stuff in the Bible. Specifically slavery then is a lot different compared to slavery in the past century or so. Slavery then was not based on race. People sold themselves as slaves when the could not pay a debt or provide for their family. The bible is very clear on the treatment of slaves (Ephesians 6:9). I'm sure there were instances of forced slavery back then, but those slave owners not living under the direction of the Bible were wrong.

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  12. Joe, You "explain" the "God is the worst person in the world"...Well, I'd explain the "doctors and dentists are the worst person in the world" as their having to hurt me a little in order to help me. A very effective physical therapist I went to for a "frozen shoulder" a few years ago really made me hurt (temporarily) as she pushed and pulled to extend my arm's range, but it was the only way for me to get better.

    But I wasn't challenging you to come back and "make excuses" for God (just as I've done for doctors and dentists). I was simply pointing out that your objection to what my daughter had said didn't hold any water. It didn't contribute anything to productive thinking.

    My point about authority is that adults are morally responsible for their own actions and DO NOT NEED an authority (except insofar as the generally good people do have to create laws and have police and courts to protect themselves from bad people). Remember, I proposed a "we're all adults" model to replace your parent-child model.

    I grant that people CAN get moral instruction from religious books, but that source is NOT indispensable and, as my daughter pointed out, people can get WRONG stuff from such books. (Some Muslims get from their Qu'ran that it's fine to murder people who have written the "wrong kind of books." Some Christians get from the Bible that they should deny their children access to modern medicine.)

    Unfortunates who have not the benefit of good parents, adequate resources, or access to education may have a difficult time turning out to be good people. What's new? Religion doesn't help these people either, except perhaps in encouraging them to believe in the fantasy that the injustice they're experiencing now will be made right in Heaven.

    I suggest that you need to do a bit of research about what slavery has been like over the ages....

    Have you located a store in your area (or a library) where you can obtain a copy of The God Delusion? Do you think you will read it (at least Chapters 6 & 7)? Or do you already know (perhaps from the book's title alone, which might seem blasphemous to you and to Muslims) that you couldn't imagine reading "a book like that"? Tell me truly.

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  13. I'd like to say I have an open enough mind to read the other points of view. I have wanted to check out Dawkins The God Delusion to see what he thinks. Library right down the street should have it. I've noticed that I have had a hard time recently finding the time to recreational read anything other than "The Backyardigans Sing-a-long" or "Brown Bear, Brown Bear what do you see". Cooper likes those at the moment.

    I think JDN's answer has helped me understand(combo of experience and what you read). I'd agree that is what Christians do, except we think our Book is the authority.

    The "we're all adults" model will never work because whatever you define as "generally good people" will not be the same definition of your neighbor down the street, etc.

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  14. Joe, Your reading those books to Cooper is an important and delightful thing to do! I miss those days (of reading to my own son and daughter).

    The "we're all adults" model may have some limitations; I'll be thinking about this. Do you think the fact of competing religions is a limitation of your model? I mean, different religions have different rules (on which they can't agree either). Because religions are here to stay (for a good while yet, in any case), we're just going to have to put up with their being at some level of war with one another (as well as at war with secularists like myself who dislike some of the political agendas of activist religious groups, most especially the theocratic agenda of the Islamists and even of some Fundamentalist Christian groups). And, since we really are "all adults" (regardless of what the people who favor the parent-child model believe—I say this because I think it's a fact), we're virtually always going to have to deal with and work around different perceptions and understandings that grown-up people have.

    By the way, there's another chapter if the Dawkins book (and I'm glad that you plan to check it out) that you might find interesting. I think it's my favorite chapter. Chapter 5, "The Roots of Religion," which reviews different theories of why people all over the world tend to believe in a god or gods. He mentions whole books on the subject, and I intend to read one or more of them (as I have two other books by evolutionary biologists: David M. Buss's The Evolution of Desire and The Dangerous Passion [jealousy]). Basically, these researcher/theorists try to figure out how natural selection led to people's being the way they are and behaving the way they do. Fascinating!

    I felt almost embarrassed to discover some of what all is going on in evolutionary biology from reading Dawkins's book (I mean, because I hadn't already known about it). It's a big, exciting, wonderful world of learning we live in! I sure hope the human race can survive to continue to enjoy it.

    Good on you, my dear Joe, and may your son have beautiful dreams this night.

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  15. I checked the library online a few minutes ago and they have the TGD..of course I am going to place a hold on "The Dawkins Delusion" as well :)

    Dirty dancing: Havana Nights really got a Fair rating? Tell me there were some smooth dance moves or something?

    Joe

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  16. Ha, "Fair" is really a relatively poor rating. At least the film was watchable, unlike DeMille's "The Ten Commandments" <smile>

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  17. Good thread going here, Moristotle. I will follow closely. Looks like I get my show after all. (pass the popcorn, please)

    And Joe's rushing right out to read the Dawkins book! Tell you what....if he becomes a Dawkins disciple, I promise I will follow. Unless, of course, he actually DOES, in which case I may renege.

    And you have another honorable mention in my most recent post.

    Ten Commandments. Is that the one with Charlton Heston? I liked it years ago when I first saw it, but couldn'd stand it when I saw it again a couple Easters ago.

    (Don't get sidetracked, though. Keep Joe as your main focus. You owe it to me, so I can rest up.)

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  18. Tom, I forgot to ask Joe whether there really is a new book out titled The Dawkins Delusion. Have you heard of it? I guess I should amazon it....(Yes, Amazon.com lists The Dawkins Delusion?: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine, by Alister E. McGrath and Joanna Collicutt Mcgrath. Hmm, the title suggests some terminology I've heard from you. Oh, no! Joe'll probably start quoting it to me now.)

    I had a most enjoyable day, intellectually stimulating and educational. Attended one of Edward R. Tufte's seminars on the display of quantitative information. (You can read about them at his website.) His four books were with included in the tuition, and I am looking forward to studying them with loving care. He had a first edition of Galileo's book on astronomy, which he walked around the room holding up for us to see some of its wonders (big room: 400 attendees). A number of things from Galileo's book are used as examples in Tufte's own books as well. Interestingly (for me, at least) is that I was listening to Bertrand Russell's chapter of Galileo (in A History of Western Philosophy) as I drove to the seminar (in Morrisville, no less). Good day. (Not that other days aren't.)

    Now to settle down to finally watch "Titus" (right, not "Vitus"). I'm not sure I can stay awake for a Shakespeare movie, even if Anthony Hopkins stars.

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  19. Oh, I missed your comment on the DeMille movie. Yes, the one with Charlton Heston. Execrable, by today's cinematic standards. I don't get off on watching laughably inept older movies. (Or laughably inept contemporary ones. <grin>)

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  20. I’m not sure you would have recalled (or cared) how early in the movie, during the Egyptian sojourn, the Israelites are bummed that they don’t even know the name of their God. The Egyptians even taunt them over this. Later on, though, all is well. They’ve learned the name. It is “the LORD.” Sheeesh!

    It’s as if the sweetheart who became your wife despaired in her earlier days because she hadn’t yet caught your name. But later on she is delighted to discover it is “the MAN.”

    LORD is a title, not a name.

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  21. Are you suggesting that Cecil B. DeMille was an exceptionally dumb bumpkin? <chortle> So it would appear! (I mean, that he was.)

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  22. No. Alas, he just picks up that "name" quirk through mainstream churchiology. (how's that for coining a word?)

    http://carriertom.typepad.com/sheep_and_goats/2007/05/the_divine_name.html

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