On Valentine's Day, I withheld judgment on "Temple Grandin's dilemma," pending further information.
Further information I now have, from her wonderful book (a must read for anyone interested in other animals and our relationship with them), Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behavior:
An observation or too first. In the first sentence quoted, Ms. Grandin says that because we evolved a certain way, we must eat animals. Clearly that is not so; many people are vegetarians.
She also says that, because "humans are animals...we do what our animal natures tell us to do." Not entirely. Human animals are also moral animals; the aforementioned vegetarians have chosen not to eat meat, either because they think they ought not [morality as a set of principles for avoiding evil and doing good) or because they judge that avoiding meat affords a better (because healthier) life [morality as a set of principles for attaining the good life].
That said, I still can't bring myself to judge Temple Grandin. Who would I be to judge someone who has done far more for animals than I could ever hope to do?
A subtler, perhaps deeper read when it comes to the morality of eating animals seems to be on offer in Jonathan Safran Foer's 2009 book, uneuphemistically titled Eating Animals, which I've just begun to read, along with entering freshmen at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It's their assigned reading for book discussion their first week on campus this fall.
Further information I now have, from her wonderful book (a must read for anyone interested in other animals and our relationship with them), Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behavior:
If I had my druthers humans would have evolved to be plant eaters, so we wouldn't have to kill other animals for food. But we didn't, and I don't see the human race converting to vegetarianism anytime soon. I've tried to eat vegetarian myself, and I haven't been able to manage it physically. I get the same feeling you get with hypoglycemia; I get dizzy and light-headed, and I can't think straight. My mother is exactly the same way, and a lot of people with processing problems have told me they have this reaction, too, so I've always wondered if there's a connection. If there's something different about your sensory processing, is there something different about your metabolism, too?So, what judgment am I now prepared to make?
There could be. It's possible that a brain difference could also involve a metabolic difference, because the same genes can do different things in different parts of the body. A gene that contributed to autism might contribute to a metabolic difference, or any other kind of difference. Parents have always said that their autistic children have lots of physical problems, too, usually involving the gut, and mainstream researchers haven't paid a lot of attention to this.
So until someone proves otherwise I'm operating from the hypothesis that at least some people are genetically built so that they have to eat meat to function. Even if that's not so, the fact that humans evolved as both plant and meat eaters means that the vast majority of human beings are going to continue to eat both. Humans are animals, too, and we do what our animal natures tell us to do.
That means we are going to continue to have feedlots and slaughterhouses, so the question is: what should a humane feedlot and slaughterhouse be like?
Everyone concerned with animal welfare has the basic answer to that: the animal shouldn't suffer. He should feel as little pain as possible, and he should die as quickly as possible.
...But eliminating pain isn't enough. We have to think about animals' emotional lives, not just their physical lives. We're responsible for slaughterhouse animals; they wouldn't even exist if it weren't for us. So we have to do more than just take away physical pain.
The single worst thing you can do to an animal emotionally is to make it feel afraid.... [pp. 179-80, 189]
An observation or too first. In the first sentence quoted, Ms. Grandin says that because we evolved a certain way, we must eat animals. Clearly that is not so; many people are vegetarians.
She also says that, because "humans are animals...we do what our animal natures tell us to do." Not entirely. Human animals are also moral animals; the aforementioned vegetarians have chosen not to eat meat, either because they think they ought not [morality as a set of principles for avoiding evil and doing good) or because they judge that avoiding meat affords a better (because healthier) life [morality as a set of principles for attaining the good life].
That said, I still can't bring myself to judge Temple Grandin. Who would I be to judge someone who has done far more for animals than I could ever hope to do?
A subtler, perhaps deeper read when it comes to the morality of eating animals seems to be on offer in Jonathan Safran Foer's 2009 book, uneuphemistically titled Eating Animals, which I've just begun to read, along with entering freshmen at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It's their assigned reading for book discussion their first week on campus this fall.
Jim eats meat, Jack doesn't. Is Jack justified in believing that he is morally superior to Jim?
ReplyDeleteIs that a trick question? What do you mean by "morally superior"?
ReplyDeleteEven though I am a vegan of nearly 20 years and vegetarian of nearly 30, I well remember my own shakiness and hypoglycemic symptoms when I tried to quit eating processed red meat. The last meat I managed to give up was the worst: hot dogs. My vegetarian diet would go fine for a couple of weeks then I would get the shakes and crave a hot dog like a heroin addict seeking a dirty needle. It took about a year but I finally beat that craving—and launched the healthiest and happiest decades of my life.
ReplyDeleteThis is just a personal observation, and I don't even know if there has been a scientific study done on the subject, but I suspect my craving was for the chemicals in the processed red meat, not for the meat itself. And I think that is why I had such a struggle giving up my least favorite but most chemical laden meat. It is my guess that in years to come there will be lawsuits filed against the meat industry for using chemicals to make addicts of meat eaters, just as cigarette manufacturers dosed tobacco with nicotine to make addicts of smokers.
If you are raised on the typical American "meat & potatoes" diet, you are mentally and physically indoctrinated to such. So yes, it is difficult to quit. Same as if you are trying to quit smoking, taking drugs or give up excessive drinking after a couple of decades of it.
Given the proven health benefits of vegetarianism, however, and the arguable mental and emotional benefits, how can one give up on the quest to become a vegetarian? For eons homo sapiens has been needlessly barbaric to other species and to its own; are we going to give up on the struggle to change that behavior as well?
Mo: You are asking what the meaning of "is" is.
ReplyDeleteMotomynd: "Given the proven health benefits..."?? What proof? It's true that a diet that includes lots of red meat is a bad idea, but if you're contrasting vegetarianism to red meat gluttony, you're stacking the deck. I agree that the mental and physical benefits are "arguable," so this observation does not support your point.
Ken, it is a continual delight to joust verbally with you. If I was asking what the meaning of "is" is, I wonder what you were asking? Maybe: "If you'll take the bait and try to answer this, then won't you have been nicely snared?"
ReplyDeleteBut why do you say I was asking what the meaning of "is" is? I thought I was asking what you meant by "morally superior."
Were you trying to change the subject? And is that useful?
Mo, everyone one knows what "morally superior" means. You are the one doing a rhetorical quick step.
ReplyDeleteI think you're reluctant to engage because you know there is an ego reward attached to vegetarianism. This leads to asking whether there is a rational basis for the feeling of superiority.
So, Ken, it does seem to have been a trick question, after all. That is, you weren't asking a question, but chose the interrogatory form to make some statement or other, I'm not sure what.
ReplyDeletePerhaps something like: "You seem to want to establish that vegetarianism is morally superior to eating meat. And, by the way, I don't think it is." ???
Have you worked out a basis for that?
Do you agree that there is a moral basis for condemning cannibalism? I ask because I think that the basis for condemning eating animals might be quite similar, given the fact that we and they have a common ancestor.
Several foreign and some domestic defense agencies and police departments have long used some of the same chemicals used in commercial meat processing as "questioning aids" (i.e., non-visual torture accessories that leave no trace) because they produce intense localized joint pain, cramps, and worse by messing with electrolyte balances. Give someone a soft drink with the right stuff in it and they are on the floor in minutes with appendicitis symptoms, to name one, or acute arthritis pain, to name another. They can't taste it when they drink it and after if flushes out of the renal system there is no trace. Meanwhile, they have this wild tale about how they signed a confession against their will but they can't prove it.
ReplyDeleteMost people become vegetarian on a whim, go at it halfheartedly, don't do their homework, and give it up when the boy or girlfriend who got them started goes out of their life. Doing it right does take effort, until you find the diet that works best for you. After that, you have twice the energy while spending half the money and time buying food and preparing it.
Yes, if you choose vegetarianism and don't do your homework, you quickly run into problems. You need vitamin B12 supplements to avoid mood swings, depression, and other neurological problems. You need sources of protein (rice, soybeans, tofu) to avoid muscle atrophy. And these adjustments put your mood and energy on a par with meat eaters. I can't imagine where "twice the energy" comes from.
ReplyDeleteWhy does she need to justify that she eats animals? And why do you need to judge her decision to eat animals? have you become vegan? do i need to BYOB(eef) when I visit next month?
ReplyDeletePineapple Daughter, I think that Ms. Grandin has been called to account because of the apparent paradox of her working for the humane treatment of animals while still eating their flesh. The continual demand for animal flesh has led to the creation of "industrial animal agriculture" in which animals are subjected to extremely cruel and inhumane treatment and perhaps more poundage of fish are destroyed as "by-catch" than the poundage of fish being targeted for "harvesting" by what is still, euphemistically, called "fishing."
ReplyDeleteJonathan Foer's book on this subject (the cited Eating Animals) is eye-opening, must reading. Look for excerpts on this blog soon. (For example, from memory: 40% of global warming can be laid at the door of animal agriculture, more than can be blamed on vehicular traffic.) This book is going to be extremely troubling reading for many of those Carolina and Duke freshmen, to whom it has been assigned this year. It's troubling for me, and I've been vaguely aware of these issues for quite a while.
No, of course you don't have to "BYOB(eef)"! Just tell us what you want to have served to eat, and we'll serve it. Just don't ask to eat our dog. (Foer wonders why it's okay in America to eat cattle, but not okay to eat dogs, which are just as tasty and nutritious.)
FOOD for THOUGHT
ReplyDeleteI read this blog on the “rational morality” of eating animals with some interest.
To justify why she thinks she must eat animal, Temple Grandin, right of the bat makes an incorrect statement, “If I had my druthers humans would have evolved to be plant eaters.” The fact is, humans DID evolve to be plant eaters. It has only been a minute portion of the hundreds of millions of years of evolution that we humans have been able to tolerate animal flesh and milk.
The reason I suspect that Grandin failed in her attempt to become a vegetarian is the same reason why I failed at my first attempt and the same reason why moristotle wrote “Struggling” and that is the failure to eat enough starch. I won’t belabor the point only to say that successful vegans get 85-95% of their calories from starchy foods.
Discussing human animal consumption from a moral point of view is no doubt fun but will unlikely result in any meaningful meeting of the minds as no two people have the same moral values and those who really believe that they must eat meat to survive are not going to let morality get in the way. Personally I have no moral compunction eating other animals. After all, most animals we humans consume were invented by us through artificial selection for the sole purpose of being eaten by us. It would be nice if we could keep all the cows, pigs and chickens we intend to eat happy before we slaughter them. On the other side of the coin, could it not be argued that slaughtering unhappy animals is the humane thing to do? But the most humane thing we can do for these creatures, is it not, is not to bring them into the world in the first place?
On B12. Vitamin B12 deficiency is a rare occurrence even among strict vegans. Contrary to Ken’s claim that vegans “quickly run into problems”, it takes 3 years on a strict vegan diet to deplete your stores of B12. B12 deficiency is easily remedied by taking a reliable B12 supplement. The main use of B12, as I see it, is to frighten would be vegans from taking that path. It is essentially a non-issue.
My main interest in food is from the point of view of health. So is there anyone reading this blog truly interested in discussing the health ramifications of the human diet?
If so, let’s begin by focusing on one human ailment say, osteoporosis (Webster: a condition characterized by decrease in bone mass with decreased density and enlargement of bone spaces producing porosity and fragility). What is its cause? Is it a natural process of aging? Can it be prevented or cured? If so how? Are we getting the straight scoop from the medical profession? Etc?
Monsieur Directrix, thank you much for your comment, and I think motomynd will thank you, too, for helping to reply to Ken.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, Blogger flagged your comment as spam. (I overrode it, obviously.) Could it have been the same reason that motomynd has been having trouble commenting at all lately? (Perhaps the computer programmers at Blogger are die-hard animal-eaters or something? I haven't received any indication that they've hassled Ken.)
I suspect you're right that there are only a handful of people on the planet interested in discussing the morality of eating animals with me and motomynd and Jonathan Foer. But, remember, when Christ started out, reportedly talking about love and other sissy stuff like that, not many people were interested. In fact, if the Biblical accounts can be trusted at all, he got crucified for his trouble (or for some other reason not entirely clear, since there doesn't appear to be any historical record of it other than the inconsistent accounts in the New Testament).
3 years for a vitamin deficiency to announce itself! Amazing. I've never heard of a medical problem with such a long onset.
ReplyDeleteIt's not 3 years of vitamin B12 deficiency
ReplyDeleteIt's takes 3 years of strict vegan diet for any vitamin deficiency to occur. ie the body stores 3 years worth of B12. Sorry for not being clear.
Felt an obligation to do some extra research on the vitamin B12 question. I was mistaken to write that its absence would quickly cause a problem. However, predicting the point at which a problem will arise is difficult. It can be less or more than 3 years, depending on genetic factors, how much is secreted daily, and how much is absorbed. It varies from person to person. The danger is greater in a vegetarian family because the onset of vitamin B12 in children is much faster.
ReplyDeleteOops. Left deficiency out of the last sentence.
ReplyDeleteThought I'd share my daily cryptogram with you all:
ReplyDeleteWe should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.
--Albert Einstein
Interesting that you quoted Einstein. You were aware he was a vegetarian?
ReplyDelete"Our task must be to free ourselves . . . by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty."
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921
Vegetarians like to claim that Einstein was one of them to support their cause. However it seems that if he was one, he was more an intellectual vegetarian that a practicing one. Plucked off the internet is the following:
ReplyDeleteThe latest indications we have suggest that Einstein was vegetarian only for the last year or so of his life, though he appears to have supported the idea for many years before practicing it himself.
"So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."
This was from a letter written to Hans Muehsam, and dated March 30, 1954, which was about 1 year before Einstein died. This indicates he adopted a vegetarian diet at the end of his life. Previously, on August 3, 1953 Einstein had written the following in a letter to Max Kariel, suggesting that he was still eating meat at that time:
"I have always eaten animal flesh with a somewhat guilty conscience."
- Einstein Archive 60-058