The pleasure has passed that I felt on Thursday at discovering that Mr. Sheepandgoats and I are both agnostics. It isn't that I mind having this in common with Tom, it's just that I realized today that "everybody" is agnostic in the root meaning of that term, not knowing [whether or not god exists]—notwithstanding Carl Jung's statement that he knew. (So far as I know, he never said how he knew, and—again, so far as I know—no one ever even asked him to.)
No, it just isn't helpful or particularly enlightening to say that we're both (or all of us) agnostic in that way. The main thing, theistically speaking, about Tom and me is that I don't believe in god, and he does. In fact, even if I don't know that god doesn't exists, I believe (for reasons I will address, but not today) that it does not exist (and I employ "it" to get away from associations with the masculine deity of the Abramaic religions). And the same, mutatis mutandis, for Tom: he believes, for his reasons, that "God" (capitalized and masculine) does exist.
Another thing I realized today is that when Tom says (and he does say this on occasion), "Agnostics are a dime a dozen," he doesn't use the word in the root sense. If he used that [inflated] sense (where everyone except Carl Jung is an agnostic), he'd say they're a dime a hundred or a thousand!
I propose that, theistically speaking, agnostic be used to mean neutral. Acceptable synonyms might include "undecided," "undeclared," or "indifferent" (or still others). These particular alternatives seem inferior to "neutral," however.
"Undecided" implies that the agnostic can't have decided to be neutral, but he can. Or if he or she hasn't decided, that a decision has to be made at some point, and I don't think it does (although sometimes it is on the deathbed).
"Undeclared" overlooks the fact that theists and atheists may be undeclared too; they don't have to tell anyone their position (it can just be between themselves and their "God"...or their no-god).
I would like "indifferent" (and most agnostics may, in fact, be indifferent to whether someone else is an atheist or a theist) except that agnostics need not be indifferent—may, in fact, object to what theists get up to "in the name of God." They may also object to people like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins (or me) getting in people's faces with anti-religious books or blogs.
So, in the theistically neutral sense of agnostic that I recommend, I am atheist and Tom Sheepandgoats is theist, and never the twain shall meet (unless a miracle occurs and one of us persuades the other to turn). And agnostics are neither theist nor atheist, although they may or may not have decided to be, may or may not have declared it, and may or may not be indifferent to what anyone else is or does because of it.
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February 16. Note:I have written a sort of footnote to this, published as "Carl Jung wasn't the only one."
I wasn't going to comment but I laughed out loud at this line:
ReplyDeleteunless a miracle occurs and one of us persuades the other to turn
Surely if a 'miracle' occurs, the only winner can be Tom?
I'm somewhere between the two of you. I'm a 'don't care'. There might be a God, there might not be. As long as he/she/it leaves me alone, I don't care.
That makes me an agnostic by the definition you posted. That's okay, at least I'm defined now.
I research the paranormal. I've seen and experienced enough to tell me there's a lot we don't know about. That stuff rarely makes it onto my blog because of my scientific training - I can't prove it, so I don't say too much.
But what I have seen and experienced in no way indicates that anyone's running the show. I currently think we're on our own, in this life and the next.
It would be comforting to find I'm wrong about that. I can't just 'believe' though. I have to see proof.
Hey, Moristotle:
ReplyDeleteThis Romulus is an interesting guy. Go visit his blog and stomp around for awhile. His interests are unique. Furthermore, he is from the British Isles, so he probably talks funny.
Talks funny - and this from an American. Really, what is the world coming to?
ReplyDeleteIt's no wonder we let you have independence. ;)
Yes, Romulus, as I wrote the "miracle" sentence I was aware that a miracle would in and of itself accrue to theist Tom's credit, but since I too, in a way, "don't care" (and since I also have a sense of humor), I made the joke. It's wonderful that you got it, and your comments (and Tom's too) cheered me and caused chuckles here in English-settled North Carolina this morning. Thank you both, truly from the bottom of my heart. "God" may (or may not) be in "His" heaven, but all seems right with the world at this moment.
ReplyDelete