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| Bob Boldt | Michael H. Brownstein |
Dick Dalton | Kurt Groner | Maik Strosahl |
Interviewed by Moristotle
Of the five poets pictured above, you’ll likely recognize Bob Boldt, Michael H. Brownstein, and Maik Strosahl as staff members of Moristotle & Co. Dick Dalton & Kurt Groner are new to us by virtue of having participated in the collaboration “When We Were Savages,” which appeared here over the last five days. In this interview, I hope to investigate that collaboration.
Welcome, Jeff City Poets, and thanks for agreeing to be interviewed!
My questions are set in italics, and each of you is invited to speak up and be heard.
Moristotle: Dick & Kurt, let’s start by learning a bit about you. What is your background and what brought you to creative writing? What other creative endeavors might you have explored, or be exploring?
Moristotle: Is your weekly radio show available outside Missouri? And are all of those inner crew members of yours in close collaboration?
Every member of my inner crew informs the others. The newer members rely heavily on the older ones and the older ones improve in the presence of the newer ones. If you asked me, “Please identify yourself to the readers,” I would say, “I’m a little Pod of Consciousness observing what my senses say. Sometimes I make decisions, but mostly it’s come what may.”
Moristotle: Thank you, Dick! Okay, Kurt, your turn.
Kurt: My work background is state and non-profit work. Right now I am a case worker for adult individuals who have mental health related issues. I have enjoyed poetry ever since my high school days, and I discovered Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way about 15 years ago. Up to now I have mainly journaled. Other creative endeavors are playing guitar and learning drums. I currently am working on a project with a bass player. We play post-punk and grungy style music.
Moristotle: Hmm, both you and Dick are involved with helping others be well...Who was Julia Cameron? How would you summarize what her book did for you?
Kurt: Julia Cameron writes about accessing creativity. The book I mentioned helped me to get in the flow and accomplish some things, one of which was losing weight!
Moristotle: Have you recorded any music that readers of this blog might listen to, perhaps on YouTube?
Kurt: Not yet. Hopefully soon.
Moristotle: Thanks, Kurt, I appreciate it. Okay, to all of you: what is it about Jefferson City, Missouri? I understand that three of you have roots in other states. How did you all come together in Jefferson City? And would one of you tell me why you refer to yourselves as the “Jeff City Poets”?
Michael: I come from Chicago, and when I retired, I moved into a house in Jefferson City my wife bought twenty years earlier. “Jeff City Poets” is just what we call ourselves due to the geography of where we meet.
Bob: I might as well be a Jefferson City native, I’m so deeply immersed here in poetry, publication, and still and video production, and active in The Center for Buddhist Development, the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship, Lincoln University, Jefferson City Writers, the Missouri River Regional Library, and The White Rose. I was raised in a traditional Midwestern nuclear family, strongly influenced by my mother’s love of books and my father’s iconoclastic creativity.
Maik: I come to the group more recently, moving to Jefferson City in November 2018. I wanted to connect with creative minds in Missouri immediately, so my wife and I went to a library for a local authors book sale. I slowly worked my way around the room and towards the end found Michael Brownstein, and we had a great conversation, exchanged contact info, and I bought his book Slipknot into Somewhere Else. After a few correspondences, we decided to set up a Sunday poetry critiquing group (Sunday worked with my schedule).
Not long afterwards, Bob Boldt was included. I think I met Dick Dalton at a Universalist Church reading set up by Bob. The four of us and others grew our group until the pandemic hit, then continued on Zoom.
When I was off for my knee surgery, one of the other groups had a meeting that I finally got to attend. That’s where I got to meet Kurt, and he joined our group shortly thereafter.
Moristotle: Thank you, Dick! Okay, Kurt, your turn.
Moristotle: Hmm, both you and Dick are involved with helping others be well...Who was Julia Cameron? How would you summarize what her book did for you?
Kurt: Julia Cameron writes about accessing creativity. The book I mentioned helped me to get in the flow and accomplish some things, one of which was losing weight!
Moristotle: Have you recorded any music that readers of this blog might listen to, perhaps on YouTube?
Kurt: Not yet. Hopefully soon.
| What is it about Jefferson City? |
Michael: I come from Chicago, and when I retired, I moved into a house in Jefferson City my wife bought twenty years earlier. “Jeff City Poets” is just what we call ourselves due to the geography of where we meet.
Bob: I might as well be a Jefferson City native, I’m so deeply immersed here in poetry, publication, and still and video production, and active in The Center for Buddhist Development, the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship, Lincoln University, Jefferson City Writers, the Missouri River Regional Library, and The White Rose. I was raised in a traditional Midwestern nuclear family, strongly influenced by my mother’s love of books and my father’s iconoclastic creativity.
Not long afterwards, Bob Boldt was included. I think I met Dick Dalton at a Universalist Church reading set up by Bob. The four of us and others grew our group until the pandemic hit, then continued on Zoom.
When I was off for my knee surgery, one of the other groups had a meeting that I finally got to attend. That’s where I got to meet Kurt, and he joined our group shortly thereafter.
The name “Jeff City Poets” is probably my fault. I just needed something to call the group when I reserved the library room. When we started this project, Bob suggested we rename ourselves “The Savages,” but I just kept it simple so that it wouldn’t conflict with possible future projects.
Bob: I always liked the maxim that states, “When the student is ready, the master will appear.” I don’t think Maik would consider himself a master. Nevertheless, we all sort of coalesced around his vision of a community of local poets. His fortuitous appearance has brought us together. That more than any other influence has been responsible for our coming together.
Dick: My wife and I have lived in Jefferson City for 35 years and, among other hobbies, are singer/songwriters. When Michael Brownstein invited us to a poetry share at the library a few years ago, we tried it and liked it. The five guys on this project just happened to be the ones that showed up the day that Maik sprang the project.
(Ha! I didn’t know we had a moniker.)
Kurt: I am a native of Jefferson City, but have lived in St. Louis, as well and in Lawrence (Kansas) and Oklahoma City.
Moristotle: I gather, from what I’ve already heard, that the idea for the “When We Were Savages” project came from Maik. How did it get started, Maik?
Maik: I listen to a lot of different podcasts while I drive. Last summer, one of them brought up the fact that the Bronx Zoo once had a walking, talking man on display. I found it hard to just accept without research, so I dug into the topic, which lead me to Ota Benga, then to Ishi and Minik Wallace. I started formulating an idea to write about this, thinking I would add pieces about circus “freaks,” and possibly even sex workers. The idea stalled, although I already had my current piece in skeletal form and an Ishi poem that we did not include among the five parts of “When We Were Savages.”
In April, for National Poetry Month, I wanted to do something special, so I thought I would see if Michael and Bob would be interested in helping me with the project. Dick and Kurt were also at the meeting and expressed interest in participating – Dick even offered an idea I had not explored yet.
Bob: The project started out with a poem by Maik about his childhood experiences around a visit to the Baraboo Circus Museum, in Wisconsin. The theme was to explore the meaning of the word “savage” in light of the barbaric insistence of our society to objectify and commodify everything natural in the world and to describe those in closest contact with the natural world as “savages.” Each of us had different vantage points from which to explore the idea that we, the civilized, are the real savages.
Kurt: We started out working individually on a piece and then came together with suggestions and editing.
Moristotle: Fascinating! Have any of you worked on other collaborative projects?
Bob: I always liked the maxim that states, “When the student is ready, the master will appear.” I don’t think Maik would consider himself a master. Nevertheless, we all sort of coalesced around his vision of a community of local poets. His fortuitous appearance has brought us together. That more than any other influence has been responsible for our coming together.
Dick: My wife and I have lived in Jefferson City for 35 years and, among other hobbies, are singer/songwriters. When Michael Brownstein invited us to a poetry share at the library a few years ago, we tried it and liked it. The five guys on this project just happened to be the ones that showed up the day that Maik sprang the project.
(Ha! I didn’t know we had a moniker.)
Kurt: I am a native of Jefferson City, but have lived in St. Louis, as well and in Lawrence (Kansas) and Oklahoma City.
| How did the “Savages” project get started? |
Maik: I listen to a lot of different podcasts while I drive. Last summer, one of them brought up the fact that the Bronx Zoo once had a walking, talking man on display. I found it hard to just accept without research, so I dug into the topic, which lead me to Ota Benga, then to Ishi and Minik Wallace. I started formulating an idea to write about this, thinking I would add pieces about circus “freaks,” and possibly even sex workers. The idea stalled, although I already had my current piece in skeletal form and an Ishi poem that we did not include among the five parts of “When We Were Savages.”
Bob: The project started out with a poem by Maik about his childhood experiences around a visit to the Baraboo Circus Museum, in Wisconsin. The theme was to explore the meaning of the word “savage” in light of the barbaric insistence of our society to objectify and commodify everything natural in the world and to describe those in closest contact with the natural world as “savages.” Each of us had different vantage points from which to explore the idea that we, the civilized, are the real savages.
Kurt: We started out working individually on a piece and then came together with suggestions and editing.
| Have you done other collaborative projects? |
Michael: I have not.
Dick: Neither have I, other than at singer/songwriter workshops.
Kurt: Mainly music for me too. I play guitar and have collaborated on music, being in a punk band. This is the first poetry collaboration.
Maik: I have contributed to collaborative pieces where everyone contributed a couple of lines or a stanza, or where different forms of art were combined with poetry. This project, to me, was a real challenge, to blend 5 different poets’ voices with full poems.
Bob: Back in Chicago, long before I ever considered writing poems myself, I collaborated with all kinds of artists, sculptors, poets, actors, musicians, and others documenting. exhibiting, and collaborating on all manner of projects from slide and film projections, and documenting rock operas for Columbia College. For example, I worked with several Slam poets to document a series of poems on the subject of tattooing as a form of individual, artistic expression.
And who could ignore your contribution to my/our creative life. Moristotle & Co. is a true inspiration to me and the other Jefferson City poets. In a way we kind of met on your blog. I do see our group as having been at least partially encouraged and formed around your mentorship.
Moristotle: Very kind thought, Bob, thank you.
Now, please answer the next question, every one of you: What obstacles did you run into developing your portion of the 5-part poem, “When We Were Savages”?
Michael: My research revealed quite a bit, but the writing came easily once I understood who Ota was. Now, he and I are on a first name basis.
Maik: The piece we included of mine was not so difficult. These were real memories. These were real flaws in my character that I have explored. The difficulty was mainly in communicating those memories in a way that the reader could relate to them. I did get a bit overwhelmed trying to bring all five of our styles together, and I was dragging my feet until I could wrap my brain around how to proceed, but with the support of especially Michael and Bob, we worked through it all.
Bob: I really like narrative works in which I attempt to express ideas through a voice other than my own. The various examples Maik suggested of humans who had been put on display by various circuses and zoos throughout the 19th and 20th centuries were inspirational.
Dick: Neither have I, other than at singer/songwriter workshops.
Kurt: Mainly music for me too. I play guitar and have collaborated on music, being in a punk band. This is the first poetry collaboration.
Maik: I have contributed to collaborative pieces where everyone contributed a couple of lines or a stanza, or where different forms of art were combined with poetry. This project, to me, was a real challenge, to blend 5 different poets’ voices with full poems.
Bob: Back in Chicago, long before I ever considered writing poems myself, I collaborated with all kinds of artists, sculptors, poets, actors, musicians, and others documenting. exhibiting, and collaborating on all manner of projects from slide and film projections, and documenting rock operas for Columbia College. For example, I worked with several Slam poets to document a series of poems on the subject of tattooing as a form of individual, artistic expression.
And who could ignore your contribution to my/our creative life. Moristotle & Co. is a true inspiration to me and the other Jefferson City poets. In a way we kind of met on your blog. I do see our group as having been at least partially encouraged and formed around your mentorship.
| What obstacles did you run into? |
Now, please answer the next question, every one of you: What obstacles did you run into developing your portion of the 5-part poem, “When We Were Savages”?
Michael: My research revealed quite a bit, but the writing came easily once I understood who Ota was. Now, he and I are on a first name basis.
Maik: The piece we included of mine was not so difficult. These were real memories. These were real flaws in my character that I have explored. The difficulty was mainly in communicating those memories in a way that the reader could relate to them. I did get a bit overwhelmed trying to bring all five of our styles together, and I was dragging my feet until I could wrap my brain around how to proceed, but with the support of especially Michael and Bob, we worked through it all.
Of course, what could be more pretentious than to pretend to speak through another or pretend to be privy to their most intimate thoughts, a being quite alien to my mind and culture? I was immediately drawn to the character of Minik Wallace, an Inuit from Greenland who at eight was “purchased” by the American Museum of Natural History, removed from his native habitat, taken to New York City, and educated to be a civilized, Christian man. I read some of his writing and found him articulate and sophisticated. That made my use of his voice unintentionally deceptive. He did not speak in the expected pigeon-English of an uprooted hunter/gatherer aboriginal. That is why I tried to keep his language tied more to images and the mental concepts expressed by this unique human being.
His predicament seemed so similar to so many “civilized” in the 21st Century who are unable to have an authentic connection with a lost Nature and feeling a revulsion to a truly savage society and a civilization in the grips of Thanatos. The fact that he died of the “Spanish Flue” made the poem especially current and relevant. I hoped the poem might be able to express this “Savage’s” life fully, compassionately, and ironically. Minik is the original marginal man, existing as more and more moderns are coming to do: humans at the last gasp before extinction, alienated from both Nature and a ravenous culture that is devouring Nature. What an amazing time to be a poet! (And people call me negative.)
Dick: Not so much an obstacle, but an opportunity. I submitted my first poem to the group, plus some other poems, and got some very specific feedback to move from a generic character to a specific character in history. I knew the most about Malcolm X, so using the same opening lines from before, the product you saw in Part IV came into being. As the poem transformed, so did the title and its use in the various stanzas. I enjoyed the process immensely.
Kurt: Like Bob said, my main obstacle was trying to convey a voice that was both mine and the poem’s subject in as honest a way as possible. I tried to not censor myself while at the same time being aware of my own cultural perspectives and biases.
Moristotle: How did you work to bring the pieces together?
Michael: Quite a few meetings, emails, and phone calls. Once we met for a few hours on my piece to iron out a few issues others had with it.
Maik: I talked to Michael and Bob a lot through the project. In May, we met and went over our first drafts along with other members of the Jeff City Poets. Later, I got to spend time really getting to know Dick and Kurt, our poetic bond having grown with the experience. I spent several hours reading through each piece with the writer and working through suggestions and making the pieces work together. I really enjoyed a particular conversation with Dick at the end; he helped solve a problem I kept stumbling over in my ending.
Bob: Bringing the pieces together was the most fun part. Everyone had a chance to comment on each other’s poems. That is what I most appreciate about collaboration, the feedback. It would be an interesting exploration to see how much each poem had changed in response to this feedback. My only remaining concern is whether some “woke” readers might consider our efforts “appropriation” – as in, How dare you pretend to speak for another culture and another victim, especially a bunch of white males?
Dick: Not so much an obstacle, but an opportunity. I submitted my first poem to the group, plus some other poems, and got some very specific feedback to move from a generic character to a specific character in history. I knew the most about Malcolm X, so using the same opening lines from before, the product you saw in Part IV came into being. As the poem transformed, so did the title and its use in the various stanzas. I enjoyed the process immensely.
Kurt: Like Bob said, my main obstacle was trying to convey a voice that was both mine and the poem’s subject in as honest a way as possible. I tried to not censor myself while at the same time being aware of my own cultural perspectives and biases.
| How did you work together? |
Michael: Quite a few meetings, emails, and phone calls. Once we met for a few hours on my piece to iron out a few issues others had with it.
Maik: I talked to Michael and Bob a lot through the project. In May, we met and went over our first drafts along with other members of the Jeff City Poets. Later, I got to spend time really getting to know Dick and Kurt, our poetic bond having grown with the experience. I spent several hours reading through each piece with the writer and working through suggestions and making the pieces work together. I really enjoyed a particular conversation with Dick at the end; he helped solve a problem I kept stumbling over in my ending.
Bob: Bringing the pieces together was the most fun part. Everyone had a chance to comment on each other’s poems. That is what I most appreciate about collaboration, the feedback. It would be an interesting exploration to see how much each poem had changed in response to this feedback. My only remaining concern is whether some “woke” readers might consider our efforts “appropriation” – as in, How dare you pretend to speak for another culture and another victim, especially a bunch of white males?
| What’s next for the Jeff City Five? |
Dick: There’s some talk, but nothing definite yet.
Kurt: I will leave that one up to Maik and the others. Personally I would like to work on a poetic tribute to Vaclav Havel.
Maik: I was surprised at our first meeting after we finished. There was excitement and wonder about what we could do next, both including us five and adding other poets in various groups. We are in the process of deciding what direction we may want to go and what tools we can use to make the process easier along the way. I very much enjoyed this project and expect we will soon be busy on another.
I hope I’m not letting any cats out of the bag, but Maik and I have been discussing a series around immigration and the immigrant crisis, here and elsewhere. I sort of felt we were a little behind the wave with “Savages,” because there had already been a series titled “Exterminate All the Brutes.” I prefer to be ahead of the wave. It is impossible, though, to be too late with poems about immigrants, because the wave hasn’t even crested yet. “Caruso in Honduras” would be a good first poem for a series like that.
Moristotle: What questions do you wish I had asked but didn’t? Please ask them and say how you’d answer them.
Dick: How did you 5 white guys feel about writing first person poems about people of color?
I would answer: It was a privilege for me. I felt the truth in my words and phrasing. I admired Malcolm’s ability to transform again and again.
| Any questions you wish I had asked but didn’t? |
Dick: How did you 5 white guys feel about writing first person poems about people of color?
I would answer: It was a privilege for me. I felt the truth in my words and phrasing. I admired Malcolm’s ability to transform again and again.
Maik: My answer to Dick’s question: While I do want be careful not to assume I know everything another person/group of people have experienced, part of me says that my job as a creative writer is to explore different paths and feelings, then find a way to communicate that experience as best as I can. The key to persona poems for me is empathy and being willing to learn when maybe you have stepped out of bounds and need to make corrections. I had a poem I was very proud of get torn to shreds. You live, you grow and you keep writing.
Bob: I wish you had asked these three questions:
How do you think your poetry can best impact your reader?
Do you think poetry can/should have an impact on your community, country?
Do you believe poetry can have advantages over other forms of literary, artistic, and more didactic forms of written communication?
My own reply to these questions would be: There seems to be a longstanding, unspoken academic prohibition against any poetry perceived to be too political in either intent or expression. Yeah, tell that to Ginsberg, Neruda, and Lorca. Fun fact: There is growing evidence that Henry Kissinger ordered the execution of the Chilean poet, Pablo Neruda shortly after the CIA coup on September 11th, 1973.
Bob: I wish you had asked these three questions:
How do you think your poetry can best impact your reader?
Do you think poetry can/should have an impact on your community, country?
Do you believe poetry can have advantages over other forms of literary, artistic, and more didactic forms of written communication?
One thing I know: all the best essays I can muster seem to have no impact, neither assent nor opposition, just silence. I have run out of ideas. All I have left is poetry. It sounds really silly, but there has to be a poetic way to express these ideas. I don’t mean didactic stuff like some of Ginsberg. I’m thinking of poetry on the order of Wendell Berry and the spirituality of Gary Snyder.
Maik: My answer to Bob’s questions: My goal in every piece is to bring something to the reader that makes them think. I have recently adopted the following motto in my creation: Not every poem is intended to change the world, but if you are lucky, the words you write now will unsettle someone’s tomorrow.
Maik: My answer to Bob’s questions: My goal in every piece is to bring something to the reader that makes them think. I have recently adopted the following motto in my creation: Not every poem is intended to change the world, but if you are lucky, the words you write now will unsettle someone’s tomorrow.
Dick: My answer: I’d say that my poetry, or anyone’s poetry, has to connect with the reader/listener to make an impact (stir an emotion). If my poem stirs my emotions, I believe it stands a good chance of connecting with some others. If a poem meets a subconscious need and gets enough public voice, it can impact community/country. Today, musical poetry has a better chance at it. Each form of written expression has its power and its place. Poetry is for lovers.
Moristotle: Bob has been whispering to me that he has a lot more to add, acknowledging that this has been a long interview and asking whether I might reserve a spot for him on another day, to say some things “Inspired by the Savages Project.” Of course! And the same goes for the rest of you. Be inspired! Write! Submit!
| Copyright © 2021 by Bob Boldt, Michael H. Brownstein, Dick Dalton, Kurt Groner, Maik Strosahl, & Moristotle |
Thank you, Moristotle, for giving us this great opportunity. As usual, your presentations were beyond excellent!
ReplyDeleteThanks to all my collaborators and thanks especially to Moris—I know you put a lot of effort into the presentation of this piece and into this interview. It was a rush to get this piece done and I am excited it is out in the world. I hope with this one that we will be lucky, that this will unsettle someone’s tomorrow and we will look inside for change.
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