By motomynd
Do you want to know when you learn simultaneously that prayer, mind control, and telekinesis don’t work? And that the power of positive thinking is a scam? When you are 14 years old, the superhuman Wilt Chamberlain comes to the Los Angeles Lakers, he still can’t hit free throws, and the heavily favored and much more talented Lakers still can’t beat the damn Boston Celtics after 10 years of trying—even with you banging your head against the TV and thinking all kinds of positive thoughts about the Celtics starters tripping over themselves and being injured en masse.
As an older, much more mature, adult member of the professional media, I interviewed Jerry West when he was general manager of the Lakers. It was a very important Q & A with a man I idolized as a youngster, about the flagship team of the NBA—which I had followed since age six—and there were many important topics to discuss as the team faced massive roster changes and an uncertain future.
With all that on the line, I could barely stop myself from asking him if he even cared that I gave up on god and Norman Vincent Peale because the Lakers of his playing days couldn’t beat the much-hated Celtics.
Most of us are raised to believe that if we pray hard enough, or at least believe or think strongly enough, our prayers, thoughts, and beliefs will be answered. Just as we are taught that if we work hard enough—at our studies, at our sport or art of choice, at our job—we will succeed. Some people believe that to their last breath—others get their nose bloodied a few times and decide it is all a lie.
Disregarding the complete lack of logic of it all—that millions of people hoping and praying for two different teams will somehow decide the final score in the favor of one or the other—many people extrapolate far beyond the sports and faith conundrum. They believe that if a group of people has enough faith in their religion or god, it will always enable them to trump those who follow a different faith or god.
Based on their belief system, Christianity is always superior to Islam, or Hinduism always wins out over Buddhism, or vice versa. And it explains that my Lakers lost because more people—and most importantly, more devout people—were praying for the Celtics. The Puritan roots of New England trumped the New Age leanings of the West Coast, simple as that.
So how about you folks out there? Did sports—or some other equally nebulous situation—make you question your belief system? If so, did you find a way to rationalize or reconcile the outcome within your beliefs, or did you abandon ship and seek something that made more sense? Perhaps by deciding that teams such as the Celtics rather obviously achieved their success by selling their souls to the devil? Or did you just give up, decide life isn’t fair, and abandon having a belief system at all?
Please let us know your thoughts…
_______________
Copyright © 2013 by motomynd
| Please comment |
Nope. If I ever had a belief system, it was lost back in the mists of time. My earliest memory about belief was asking why my new dump truck from Santa said "Tonka" on the bottom. Second event was thinking about what they were teaching me in Sunday School, and thinking "This doesn't make sense. I bet the grownups are trying to sell me snake oil. Again."
ReplyDeleteSo if you abandoned what we might call a "traditional" belief system, what did you use as a code to live by? We all found our way somehow, for better or worse, what is intriguing is the systems people develop when they abandon the generally accepted routes: religion, booze, drugs, therapy...
Deletebtw...I can't quote the exact source, but I remember hearing a radio program where they cited children finding out Santa was a lie as the main source of their lack of trust in others, especially in adults.
I fussed and fretted about that a lot (Morris was a party to a few bull sessions on this back in the San Joaquin, as I recall.) The final product is not a polished philosophy. I noticed that most of the really fundamental moral issues (prohibition of murder, theft, fraud...) saw little disagreement among people of allegedly good will. The agreement was largely cross-cultural, as well, suggesting that these values were not entirely socially constructed. Then I went to work on the the serious disagreements (Sharia, war, xenophobia, bigotry...) and finally have arrived at something like "First, do no harm...". Hard to live by when faced with the political trash, it's true. In short, I cobbled together my own value system with duct tape and baling wire. On the whole, I don't think the result is much worse than what I've seen from Professors of Ethics.
Delete"First, do no harm" seems an excellent starting point - congratulations on finding something that works for you and sounds like it could for all of us.
DeleteYour "duct tape and baling wire" value system certainly produced better results than this guy's presumably more traditional approach: http://www.uticaod.com/news/x930816605/Pastor-gets-life-sentence-for-killing-second-wife?rssfeed=true
Chuck, thanks for the reminder of those late-night discussions, back in our mists of time. I like your "if" in "if I had a belief system," for I really don't think I yet HAD such a thing. I had basic morality from my parents, which was more or less bolstered by the Judaeo-Christian ethic I was getting through church sermons and Bible reading. I was respectful of science but woefully not up on the deeper philosopkical question of science-religion incompatibility. I'm sure I'd never heard of "non-overlapping magisteria," for example. I hadn't become "hard-nosed." And a bachelor's degree in philosophy actually did little to harden it. I was too skillful at interpreting my reading in ways to let me continue to respect science but still halfway believe in God and prayer. It was only many years later (after the year 2000) that I developed what I'd really call a belief system in a conscious sense involving care that it didn't include glaring incompatibilities.
DeleteWhat made me question my (religious) belief system? I would love to be able to remember just what I was thinking at about age 15 or 16, which is when something presumably "made" me question why I was going to church and even "taking communion." Anyway, one Sunday—I may have been 17, for I really think it was my senior year in high school—I declined a little glass container of "wine" from the metal tray that was being passed among the congregation by the ushers. "Just don't believe this," I was thinking—I'm sure—in some words or other. And I don't think I was particularly worried about the decision—no sense of guilt or impending disaster. In fact, I think I felt pretty good about what I was (not) doing.
ReplyDeleteMaybe more will come to me. This is all I want to say at the moment.
If I may be so bold, I will ask you the same question I did of Chuck: If you abandoned what we might call a "traditional" belief system, what did you use as a code to live by?
DeleteYour refusal of communion jogged my memory. I was photographing a wedding at "the" Catholic church in my hometown, and while everyone else took communion I stood in my normal position beyond the back row, behind my camera and tripod, and did my job. Being paid upwards of $200/hour was of course the only reason I would be in a Catholic - or any other - church, so why would I even consider taking communion? Next thing I know a very pushy man in a robe is beckoning me forward. I stand my ground, politely wave him off, and assume the issue will be dropped. No such luck.
He strides the length of the very long aisle, past 250 to 300 guests, planning, I guess, to drag me forward if necessary. As he approaches he says "You won't take communion with us?" And I say "no, it is against my religion." With that he spins, walks back to the front of the church, and finishes the ceremony. It was awkward, to say the least.
Later that evening, at the reception, he corners me and says "what religion do you follow that won't allow you to take communion?" Having nothing legitimate to offer, I remember a line from an action novel I read decades ago, and I say, "to quote a character from a favorite book, it is a belief against cannibalism in any form, literal or figurative."
And that was how I learned a church really can ban a photographer from its list of allowed vendors...
Motomynd, for the only answer I can think to give you now, see my comment above about Chuck's "if."
DeleteI hope that the awkwardness experienced in that church was all the priest's and none of yours.
And I trust that the lost future revenue was well worth your personal triumph.
Looking back, I'm not sure that it was worth losing the revenue to attempt to make a point to someone who wasn't going to consider it anyway. It may have been worth it, however, to avoid spending further time amongst some of the most pompous and obnoxious people I have ever met. Compared to that crowd, politicians in DC were actually sort of charming - even the Republicans - and the pay was $100/hour higher.
DeleteWell, Motomynd, "making a point" is often a futile thing to try to do, but it does sound as though it had the good result in this case of saving you much further irritation from dealing with certain obnoxious people.
DeleteAre you asking if there are some of us out here, who would bet their soul on a basketball game? My guess; it would depend on the odds.
ReplyDeleteBelief is based on life and death. If you believe do you live forever or if you don't believe do you die and go to hell(where ever that might be.) I have felt the cold hand of death on my shoulder so many times we are old friends. I remember when people found out I had cancer---they all asked: "Didn't you just want to scream at God---why me lord?" My answer was, "why not me?" The life I have let---I didn't give odds of making it this far. So, why do people like me live on and very good people die. Or very good teams loss? Maybe, they didn't have an Eagle Feather....
Are you saying an eagle is as good a power to believe in as any? Or do you have a more preferred way of deciding what is right and what is wrong when you have to decide which is which and choose between the two?
DeleteKonotahe, I read your reference to an eagle feather as a way of saying that no talisman is any bettecr (or worse) than another, not that you depend on an eagle feather.
DeleteAs Jonathan Price commented on his sister's first column on Moristotle & Co., if your criterion for what's right depends on the consequences of yout alternative actions, it is very difficult—if not impossible—to decide what the right course is.
Not sure if an eagle feather is better---it didn't seem to help the Indians very much. I just think you look cooler with an eagle feather in you hair(wish I had some) than a Bible under your arm. As right courses go---one man's right is another man's wrong. You might as well roll the dice; life is not much more than a crap shoot anyway.
ReplyDeleteOur belief system goes beyond religion does it not? How about beliefs in political leaders, doctors, etc. Politicians and doctors disagree every bit as much as do religious leaders. So who do we believe? Should we believe in those who with charismatic rhetoric or soothing bedside manner tell us what we want to hear or in those who speak the cold hard truth? The trick is to discern which is which and choose wisely in whom to believe.
ReplyDeleteHear, hear, Jim, and well said. Yes indeed, belief systems go beyond religion, and I think the distinction between faith-based and fact-based is the central concept, whether the faith involved has to do with deities, politicians, medical practitioners, teachers, other drivers, salesmen, neighbors, or....
DeleteJim, yes, we need to choose wisely, but what is the trick to doing that? And to gracefully accepting the outcome if the results aren't positive?
DeletePeople who follow traditional religions pray to their god of choice for help in choosing wisely. If disaster ensues after making that choice, they accept it as their god's will. They therefore have a built-in system for making a decision and coping with the outcome.
What I am curious about is the systems employed by people who don't follow the traditional religious route of prayer and acceptance.
The "trick" would seem to be a way (a technique, procedure, or "system") for judging what is true (in accord with the facts) and what is sham. The "way" involved would seem to require very good information (from research, reading, "keeping informed"), being generally wary or skeptical, asking good questions...
DeleteJim, are these things of the sort you think involved in wise discernment and choosing? Motomynd, are these anything like the elements you mean by a "system"?
I stay with my belief. Life is a dice game. You put your money down and roll the dice. If you win---what a lucky person you are. If you lose; you except it and try to cut your losses. There are no facts, which can not be changed by tomorrow. Man can fly and can sail around the world---do we think we have evolved to the point of excepting fact as truth and truth as fact. Maybe fact is only truth in the time we live and tomorrow it will no longer be a fact.
DeleteMorris, didn't mean to turn this into a too-deep exercise in morality research, but with the varied readers and writers here I thought it might be an opportunity for the older and hopefully wiser to share their secrets on how they have found their way through life. I am assuming, of course, that all of you have indeed found your way and hopefully did not just stumble and bumble their way - because I am hoping the "system" is more than just luck.
ReplyDeleteSo, to you and the others, if you have made it to retirement age with at least a modicum of personal and financial success, and with some semblance of head still held high, how did you do it? Much of that success could not have come from knowing facts before making decisions - because while the future may be at some level somewhat predictable it is not knowable until it arrives - so there had to be some guesswork involved. So how did everyone make their guesses, and live with the results, if they did not preselect a "god" to seek advice from or fall back on?
I used the word "system" because most people have such for approaching all decision-making. Again, some pray and accept whatever happens, others don't pray - so they must have some other means of deciding beforehand, and accepting afterward, whatever happens. I am just curious what has worked - and not worked - for you, and others, when you have had to chart a challenging course.
Oh, Motomynd, sorry I got too deep for you there. Let's keep it shallower, then, if we can.
DeleteI just noticed from re-reading an earlier one of your comments that you might be equating "believe system" to "code of conduct"; i.e., a set of ethical principles, or rules for doing "the right thing." Is that what you mean?
Let's not over-estimate what actual help is to be derived from "seeking advice from God." Since God of course provides no advice—being non-existent—the believer's situation really isn't much different from anyone else's. We live from day to day for the most part, sometimes thinking about longer-term goals. Some people are much more goal-oriented than others. I confess that I probably have not been particularly goal-oriented. When I was in high school, I was fortunate to have teachers who thought I should go to college—a possibility that hadn't occurred to me, coming from a family most of whose members hadn't even completed high school. Because I was interested in philosophy, which didn't seem particularly practical, I got to thinking that I'd go into teaching. The reality of graduate school—that being an academic really didn't suit me—led to my dropping out. I had gotten married a few months before entering grad school, so I was highly motivated to get a job. Starting a business, being an entrepreneur, didn't occur to me; I had no models for that, no predisposition. So, through a chance encounter, I got an in to interview at IBM, which of course had an excellent reputation in the mid-60's. Easy for me to get in, even if my initial months there seemed to be an ill fit. That was easily corrected by a switch over to more technical work, first computer programming, at which I was quite good, then technical writing, which I liked more and was even better at. The pay was good, the security seemed long-lasting, so...thirty years later things had changed, lifetime job-security had ended at IBM, they were downsizing....
I wasn't particularly directing my life, and I don't think many people do. You may be (and I gather you are) an exception.
What code of conduct was I using? Well, I was a good person. I treated people fairly. I know that I succeeded in this for I had many many expressions of appreciation from team members and younger people for whom I served as mentor.
I'm not sure how to continue. Would you perhaps provide some more prompts?
I enjoy the Unitarian Universalist's program: from a long list of religious and spiritual sources, construct your own way to see the world -- a little from humanism, something from pagans, a touch of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., or maybe none of the above. While I have not been successful in this endeavor, it still appeals.
ReplyDelete"Construct your own way to see the world" is an intriguing concept. If someone constructs from "a long list of religious and spiritual sources," the rest of us could assume the final structure would be positive. Yet if someone chose to build from a strict Old Testament basis, and add in a dash of "humanism" derived from the teachings and tactics of Hitler and Vlad the Impaler, the finished product most likely would not be all that positive. It would be especially tough on immigrants, to cite one example. So what determines if the results of constructing one's own way are positive or negative?
ReplyDeleteSo far, in this little group of well-read, well-traveled and successful people, we have theories on finding one's own way that vary from "first, do no harm" to the theory of life as a crap shoot, to the scientific and logical approach, to what might be called the "religious and spiritual sampler" concept. If they have all worked, does that mean it does come down to random chance - and we all may as well rely on luck instead of expending time and effort pondering higher thoughts and ideals?
There are many people the world over, whom fate has not been kind. They work harder and are smarter than their counterparts. However, their lot in life is one of disappointment. In my life I have had two great ideas that went nowhere because the timing was wrong. A year later someone else came up with the same idea(the time was right)and made a fortune. Things happen. Not because we want them to happen but because the time and place are right. If you are lucky, you will be standing there when it takes place. If not--what the hell. Moto going to Cali, me in Costa Rica and others where ever they might be---none of us know what tomorrow holds nor should we care. Do the best you can do today, and F--- tomorrow. I know the reason I can say this is: I'm retired and living Pura Vida, but the good things in your life as well as the bad, made you who you are. I'm not that unhappy with me.
ReplyDeleteKonotahe, I think that chance plays a tremendous role in all of our lives. In fact, our vaunted "free will" may be an illusion. Whether we "expend time and effort pondering higher thoughts and ideals," as motomynd phrases it, may itself be a matter of chance, and if we do chance to expend such time and effort, the particular "higher thoughts and ideals" that we ponder are themselves a matter of chance. And chance too whether any of them have enough relative influence to affect our actions.
DeleteSome people may be bewildered by such a prospect. Chance has determined that they will be. Personally, I find it very comforting. Go with the flow. You're going to go with it whether you would or not.
I can only remember praying one time in my life. It had something to do with the girl sitting next to me in my high school French class. When my prayer didn’t come true I gave up praying. If you must choose a religion, any one will do as religions are fundamentally the same. However, it’s probably not a good idea to choose Christianity in Iran. Also, a Christian Scientist with appendicitis might want to rethink his beliefs. We’ve all made choices in our lives that we regret. (Some choices, particularly religion, are made for us in our formative years.) The trick is not to make the same mistake twice. If you determine your choice of religion is not right for you, choose another one … or none at all. It’s no big deal. Choosing, for example, the wrong PCP (primary care physician) can do more harm than choosing the wrong religion. The trick here is to choose a PCP that truly has your best interests at heart AND practices Evidence Based Medicine is it not?
ReplyDeleteJim, I may remember that girl myself. She probably inspired similar prayers in many adolescent boys.
ReplyDeleteAt last - you guys are providing wisdom to the world!
ReplyDelete1- First, do no harm; 2- accept that much of what happens is luck; 3- also accept timing is everything; 4- don't make the same mistake twice; 5- choose your primary care physician wisely; 6- go to work for a company when it is ascending, not descending; 7- base your personal philosophy in humanism, spiritualism, paganism, and whatever else appeals - or not; 8- hold it together with duct tape and baling wire; 9- an eagle feather may help, if not it will at least make you look cool; 10- in dealing with women, the eagle feather may be more important than prayer, because prayer apparently doesn't work - and the looking cool might.
And now we have a 10 commandments that may actually be useful. Or not - for luck may be all that really matters.
What a hoot, Motomynd. And not merely a hoot, but a useful compilation! Thank you for it. What your first "Random" column hath wrought!
DeleteBring it on. Bring it on!
prayer apparently doesn't work - and the looking cool might.
ReplyDeleteThanks, a good laugh to start the day off is never a bad thing.
Indeed, never a bad thing. Thank you, dear Konotahe!
Delete